Cardinal George: on Catholic identity, Communion and politics

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This year marks the 10th anniversary of Cardinal Francis George's installation as archbishop of Chicago, one of the largest and wealthiest dioceses in the world. It is likely that later this year, George will take over as president of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops. NCR interviewed the cardinal Oct. 2.

NCR: Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, the Vatican's secretary of state, has said Pope Benedict's "main objective" is "to recover authentic Christian identity and to explain and confirm the intelligibility of the faith in the context of widespread secularism." Why the concern with identity?.

George" John Paul II often said that there are whole cultures that used to be shaped by the faith but that aren't any longer.... In [Western] culture, individualism is so embedded that the loss of a collective identity is rampant. Each one feels not only free but obliged to determine his or her own religious identity, so we have .a plethora of understandings of what it means to be Catholic as well as what it means to be human and what it means to be anything else....

I think some of the moves of the church [in the 1960s] now seem sociologically naive, in their long-term consequences.

What do you have in mind?

Catholicism as a distinctive way of life was defined by eating habits and fasting, and by days especially set aside that weren't part of the general secular calendar.... Once you say that all those things can be done individually.., you reduce the collective presence of the church in somebody's consciousness.... So then when the church turns around and says, "You have to do this," then resistance is there to say, "How can you tell me that? I'm deciding on my life for myself, and you even told me I could!"

So is the answer rebuilding a subculture?

I suppose it is, though not in a way that's divorced from the culture that we have now, which is ours--what else are we? If there is a subculture, it would have to be developed naturally in relationship to today's crises, as earlier institutions were at one point. You can't go back.

The pope's broadening permission for the pre-Vatican II Latin Mass is one focus of identity concerns. Do you anticipate widespread use of the old Mass?

I haven't seen wide demand for it.... Most of the practicing Catholics I know ... who have nothing against the Tridentine rite, remember it and appreciate it, but they say, "We're somewhere else now."

A related issue with the old Mass are prayers that other religious groups find offensive, and specifically the prayer for the conversion of the Jews on Good Friday. Could the language of the new Missal be used for these prayers?

Of course it can be done, and I suspect it probably will be, because the intention is to be sure that our prayers are not offensive to the Jewish people who are our ancestors in the faith. We can't possibly insult them in our liturgy.... "They," however, is a big tent. What my rabbi friend down the block finds insulting is different from what Abraham Foxman [of the Anti-Defamation League] finds insulting. Also, it does work both ways. Maybe this is an opening to say, "Would you care to look at some of the Talmudic literature's description of Jesus as a bastard, and so on, and maybe make a few changes in some of that?"

Are we going to see a replay in 2008 of the issue of Communion for pro-choice Catholic politicians in 2004?

It depends what the media wants to play up. The bishops are not of one mind ... and so that division can be played upon.... There are some who would say it's a moral theology question about the conscience of the individual. [This view holds] that it's our business to instruct them; it's their business to make the decision. Others would say that ... there's also public scandal, and therefore the public law of the church comes in.

This too is part of the Catholic identity debate?

Yes. It is scandalous that after so many years of the church's constant teaching that you have so many Catholic politicians for whom this is a non-issue ... The question is, do you use a sacramental moment to address that, and risk politicizing the sacrament? That's my biggest concern. The very sacrament that speaks about our unity becomes the occasion for this kind of fracas and disunity.

Editor's Note: After this interview appeared online, George added a clarification of his comments on Jesus in the Talmud:

The point is not to compare relatively obscure scholarly texts with liturgical prayers that have a much wider audience and influence, but to suggest that the controversy surrounding the [old Mass] might be an occasion for a wider dialogue. An endless cycle of recrimination neither reflects nor advances the strong and friendly relations that are now taken for granted by many in both the Jewish and the Catholic communities. Trusting in these relationships, why can't we discuss texts that are hurtful to either Jews or Christians and, if appropriate, suggest changes?